dezoris

The moderator in the TL forum closed this and said to post it here. Does not make sense considering this really only applied to 2004+ TL owners.

But regardless I wanted to post this on this site because the problems discussed in this article also affects the TL 6Speed transmission. And I want to get more feeback on the issue from TL owners and experiences.

Honda 6 Speed Manual Dilemma

"Can't Replicate the Problem."

Written By: Mark Sanew, Savagegeese.com, Automotivetech.org, Greg Nelson, Abram Zednoski.

Editor: Jaroslaw Szymanski

Mobile Version of Article

• Certain Honda 6 speed manuals problematic for most owners.
• Dealers not trying hard enough to troubleshoot issues with owners.
• Problem demonstrated in video below.
• Problem is real and Honda may have mechanical fix in the works for certain models.

Story:

Not long ago in the adolescence of the compact car market were Hondas running around with intakes, headers, body kits and the required spoiler generating 50,000lbs of rear down force. The automotive market and drivers have changed remarkably in the past 10 years. In that time we have seen the dawn and now near death of the large SUV. We have seen cars of all makes and models grow in size, safety and power. And now as the world debates energy changes and policies we have an evolving car market.

But this article is not going to discuss any of that. We are here to take a look the current lineup of the vehicles manufactured with Honda 6 speed manual transmission. Every car group has a few models that create a buzz that fills internet search engines with data for analysts to observe. Be it the GM ZR-1, Ferrari 430 Scuderia, or the Honda Civic Type R, enthusiasts love new sports cars.

In the 90s some of the North American market had a taste of the Acura NSX and the Integra Type R. While millions had their heart in Civic's and Integras. The message boards filled up with questions on how to make these cars faster and more extreme. Fast forward to year 2000 and Honda has provided the market with the S2000, a more powerful Civic Si with limited slip and 6 Speed manual transmission and near 300HP versions of the TL and Accords.

This past decade has been one exciting time for Honda owners. But before we send Honda a box of chocolates and flowers we must address a nagging issue that owners all over the internet have been posting and blogging about. The issue is that of the 6 speed manual transmission problems in several major Honda models. The complaints range from gear grinds, difficulty shifting, and loss of gears all together.

The Problem:

Our experience started in 2000 with the Honda S2000 praised as having one of the worlds best feeling gearbox. But as the number of owners increased so did the cries of frequent 2nd and 3rd gear grinds and owners losing 5th or 6th gear all together. As time advanced owners of the car had learned from hard core owners and mechanics that skipping gears such as shifting from 3rd to 5th could cause loss of a synchronizer on that gear. Or that the Honda transmission fluid was not up to the task in wear protection for the long term. Owners tampered with different trans fluids, fluid levels and shifting techniques. As the 2002 model rolled in manufacturing improvements were said to be made but no one could really decide what they were. In 2004 the transmission synchronizers received an update in materials in hopes to alleviate balky shifting and grinds. As owners brought in their cars to the dealers the same story like a broken record was heard in many cases, dealers suspecting abuse or refusing service due to modifications.




To take an unbiased approach there were hundreds of stories we had read where some of these owners were very negligent. One day on the message board they were posting on how they accomplished a massive burnout in front a Corvette and the next day they lost a gear or clutch. We understand that many sports car owners of all makes and models like to drive and many don't want to leave their car stock so dealers tend to be very cautious about honoring warranties. But moving away from the S2000 problems we come to the Honda Accord released in 2003 for the first time with a 6 speed manual. Also the nearly brand new 2006 Honda Civic Si also equipped for the first time with a 6 speed manual gearbox.




Trying to Fix the Problem:

There are other models such as the Acura TL and TSX with 6 speed transmissions and much of what will be discussed will apply more so to the TL. One of the females in the group loved the Accord Coupe and decided to buy a new 2006 EX with 6 Speed and navigation. After test driving older models and being upset with clutch take-up it seems the 2006 and 2007 models did not suffer from the issue so the purchase was made. After 1000 miles 3rd gear seemed difficult to engage or sometimes refused to engage at all and popped out when attempts were made. The female owner suspected it may just need to be broken in further. At 3000 miles the issues continued and the first trip was made to MotorWerks in Barrington, Illinois . This dealer has a good reputation in terms of repair and sales and most likely due to them selling higher end vehicles such as Porsche, BMW, and Maybach. After the usual day in the shop the owner got the call from the service manager saying that "They could not replicate the issue." This is a quote most Honda owners of these types of cars dread and have heard often.



At 10,000 miles the problem continues and the second attempt at dropping it off at the dealer returned the same result, nothing. Frustrated and upset the owner asked friends and a local Honda mechanic and they pointed her to a few websites that printed a Honda bulletin from the tech line about a different transmission fluid that may help her issue. She attempted to order it online and could not find it. After arguing with 3 dealers about the part number that dealers could not locate MotorWerks discovered their software for updates from Honda was out of date. Once they updated it they found the part number. At 14,000 miles the owner paid to swap out the transmission fluid in hopes it would help the issue. While she claimed it felt better, a few weeks later the gear pops were happening again. To avoid any comments on why the owner did not want to swap to GM or Penzoil Syncromesh, it was mainly because she wanted Honda to address the root of the problem and make a manufacturing fix.


Could Not Replicate the Problem:

Another call was placed to Motorwerks for an appointment, this time she wanted to ride with a mechanic. They agreed and had the shop foreman go with her and he drove the car. In the 10 minute ride he could not replicate the problem. He was very nice about the issue until he made the following comments:

"You have to press the clutch down all the way."

"These cars all have this problem it is normal."

"You cannot skip gears when you drive these cars."



The shop foreman confirmed the obvious for her. But the disturbing fact was they had no fix. After this visit she made appointments to the now out of business Crystal Lake Honda, Crystal Lake, IL, and Schaumburg Honda. Both visits were almost exactly the same which they recommended that she change the transmission fluid and that this was normal for the car.




Proving the Problem Exists in 5 Minutes:

Soon after we got a call from her about it and that she was thinking about selling the car. We recommended she try calling Honda customer support. We started our own research on the matter which involved hands on. Doing some simple searches on Google revealed a few web forums and blogs discussing issues on the trans problems in the TL, Accord, S2000 and the 2006-2007 Civic Si which proved this is not a random problem.

Edmonds

8thGenCivic



S2ki

AcuraZine

After the web search we started driving random samples of used Civic Si MY2006-2007 and Accord V6 with 6 speed manuals between the MY 2003-2007. The VIN numbers of the cars are listed below.


Civics

2HGFG21526H708350 2006 27k Miles

2HGFG21567H701080 2007 10k Miles

2HGFA55597H706304 2007 7k Miles

2HGFG21526H702998 2006 17k Miles

2HGFG21576H711583 2006 21k Miles

2HGFA55557H714786 2007 5k Miles

2HGFG21536H710303 2006 6k Miles

2HGFA55507H705381 2007 6k Miles

2HGFG21537H710240 2007 13k Miles

2HGFA55527H706998 2007 10k Miles



Accords

1HGCM65556A010942 2006 25k Miles

1HGCM81625A012611 2005 36k Miles

Our Test Car



Conclusion:

The reader may notice we stopped our research on the Accord models. The main reason was that the trend of problems was fairly obvious. 8 of the 10 Civic Si's we drove had problems getting into 3rd gear mostly during the first 10 minutes of driving. One of the Si's transmission was smooth but had a short shifter kit and a 120db exhaust. And the second Si that past the test really did not pass because 2nd and 3rd gear ground so badly that we could not confidently say it suffered from a manufacturing defect.

The three Accord's driven in the test also had similar issues with 2nd gear smoothness and 3rd gear popping out. The final Accord was our female owner who let one of our most competent drivers behind the wheel to shoot the test videos below.

The two videos should be standard viewing for the dealers who can't seem to "replicate the problem." As we were able to re-produce the problem on our test car in less than 5 minutes and in nearly every test drive we were on.

In conclusion we must say that it's obvious there is a problem and Honda needs to address the issue with a mechanical fix. Rumors are now flying that Honda has a fix in the pipe due this month. (01/2008) Likely this will not be a recall but a TSB and in usual dealer fashion they will need to replicate the issue in order to service the car. So while the proof has been out there here is our video documentation of the issue.

Download Video 1

Download Video 2

Alperovich

honda's first 6spd trans FTW!! (as in, we don't have this issue in the Legend, which had the first 6spd)

but it really does suck. i have a friend with a 05 TL with this grinding issue. He, and others, i know run the GM trans fluid (i also run this in my 5spd CL and Legend) and no issues.

I hope honda fixes their flaws..

majin ssj eric

I always had trouble with third gear in my Civic Si. It wouldn't pop out, but sometimes I had to really push hard to get it to go into 3rd......

fuzzy02CLS

iTrader: (2)

Not a thing wrong with my CL trans. I haven't heard many of these problems with the CL 6MT.
There have been a few members that complained of grinds into 2nd & 3rd & the new manual trans fluid that came out last year seems to have cured that. Or the fluid is a little cold & after it warms up it's fine(common to all sticks)

Any of these cars have clutch dampeners?

The CL does. Some members have bypassed it.

iTimmy

I traded my TSX in because it developed a grind going into sixth, I thought it was an isolated problem so didn't think much of it. Mine started around 39k miles and I traded it in around 42k miles. Having just bought a S2k this is a bit concerning.

SuperTrooper169

iTrader: (2)

I saw this on another forum. I've had zero problems with my Accord 6spd other than it taking a little more effort to get it into gears when I first drive it in the morning, but as Fuzzy mentioned, that's common on most sticks.

dezoris

Did you skip gears? Like shifting from 4-6th? Or 3rd to 6th?

iTimmy

Maybe a few times, but it certainly wasn't a normal thing for me to do.

Acura told me that it may be covered by warranty but I would have to sign an agreement that I would pay the labor for them to look in the event it was not covered; I didn't trust them enough to risk it so I traded it in on an infiniti.

Costco

Is there a problem with shifting from 1-4? Does it put stress on the synchros or something? I remember reading something about it, but don't remember what it was. All GM 6-speed manual cars force you to shift from 1st to 4th gear while accelerating slowly between 2000-2500 rpm. Its called CAGS (Computer Assisted Gear Shift) and its annoying, but I like it for when I drive in bad weather or decide to save a bit of gas. A lot of F-Body guys do transmission rebuilds, but then most of those guys are pushing 500+ whp. Why it concerns me is that I have had a couple 1st and 4th gear pop-outs (coincidence? I think not), although it may be to blame for me not pushing it in gear all the way.

shabaaz

I often skip gears in my 07 Si but i still move the shifter through the gear i'm skipping but without releasing the clutch. For example if i'm shifting from 4th to 6th, I will clutch in, move shifter to 5th, then shift into 6th and de-clutch. I know how a manual transmission and syncros work and I wouldn't think my driving style would hurt the syncros. Any opinions? Is that okay or not?

SouthernBoy

Skip shifting is potentially bad for the synchronizers in the target gears because they have to do more work matching (slowing down) the higher gears since those are turning at lower RPM's. To avoid this, you would need to pause a bit longer with the clutch disengaged before attempting to complete the shift.

Remember what synchronizers actually do. They act as little metallic clutches to match drive and driven gear speeds in preparation for the meshing of the dog teeth into their collars to the hubs in the gears (in a constant mesh manual transmission, you do not actually shift gears at all).

It is best to avoid skip shift unless you really know what you're doing. Also, in order to do this correctly, you drive train will be disconnected for longer than normal.

SouthernBoy

While better that a straight skip shift, this is still not a preferable method of shifting. Since you know how synchronizers work, you would know that what you're doing could be called "riding the synchros". In other words, you're using the synchronizers of the skipped gear to do some of the friction work, thereby taking a bit of the load off of the "skipped to" target gear.

Yes, this is better than going straight (and right away) to the target skip gear, but I would recommend not doing this either.

SouthernBoy

Yes.

Unless you know what you're doing, you will cause significantly more premature wear to your synchronizers by doing this.. especially 1-to-4 skips.

INSPIRE 32V

iTrader: (1)

mine gives me little grind going into second

Shoofin

I never sensed any problems with the shifter in my '06 S2000 at all. I also rarely ever used 5th gear, and most of the time went from 4th to 6th straight away. It never felt like I was grinding gears or straining the engine by going from 4th to 6th at all.

I still shift from 4th to 6th in the S2000, and my GTI. No problems whatsoever.

F23A4

Although I wound up getting an 07 AV6 5AT, the 06 AV6 6MT I test did not seem to exhibit this issue. But, I have read of this problem several times on an Accord forum.

SuperTrooper169

iTrader: (2)

Hmm, my AV6 6mt is the first car that I've skipped shifts in, i.e. 4th -> 6th. I never knew it had the potential to cause synchro wear. I always pause a little longer than a normal 4th -> 5th gear change and never felt like it was doing anything bad to the tranny, but now I'm second guessing it. It was always a fuel savings thing for me, but now that I've been reading all of this about skipping gears I think I'm going to try to avoid doing it for now on.

SouthernBoy

Here's the thing. If you skip shift to a higher without waiting (so you treat it just like a normal shift), your synchronizers have to create more friction than necessary to match the speed of the selected gear for your shift. If you wait for the gear speed to decrease enough for a smooth shift, you will also be losing more road speed than traffic might support at the time. That's really all there is to it.

Oops.. I just re-read a few of my posts on this and got something wrong. The higher gears will be turning slower, not faster, than the "drive" gears (those on the tranmission input shaft). The effect is the same, though.

fuzzy02CLS

iTrader: (2)

I have never skipped gears in any stick. Just not the way I learned to drive them.

DAYTA

Everyone here is talking about skipping gears during upshifts, but how does this affect people who skip gears when downshifting?

Oftentimes, I will do a 5-3 or 4-2 (sometimes 5-2) downshift when slowing down for a turn. However, I also ALWAYS rev-match my downshifts (no double-clutching, though). I wouldn't think this creates much wear on the synchros since the engine would already be at the correct RPM for the given speed in the downshifted gear. Am I missing something?

sonnyboyacura

I have an 08 SI with about 2000 miles on it, I have a bit of notchiness in 3rd gear but thats about it. I don't skip shift and this was my 1st standard transmission.

Please don't screw me again on another transmission Honda....

SouthernBoy

Yes you are. You should double clutch your normal downshifts. If you are skipping a gear on a downshift (and I know this does happen out of need), then the double clutching action is all the more important because of the wider difference in gear speeds.

Gentlemen, try this little "test". Do a skip shift and instead of waiting for the gear speeds to "match", go ahead and do a normal shift as though you were not skip shifting. You will notice increased resistance to the pressure you exert on the shifter. That's the synchronizers begin forced together and working harder to match gear speeds. Harder means more friction which means more wear.

Try the same thing on a downshift (without double clutching) and you will get the same results. It stands to reason that you want to avoid applying this force to your shifter as much as you can in order to increase the life of the synchronizers.

sonnyboyacura

Ok...I rev match but what exactly is double clutching? I read somewhere else that double clutching wasn't all the necessary and that rev matching would suffice during down shifting 1 gear at a time.

SouthernBoy

I'll get back to you when I get home. I have to make a few stops on the way, so I will probably be around 5:00.

Costco

Double clutching is when you clutch in to get out of gear, then while its in neutral, you clutch in again to get into another gear. You want to combine it with rev matching when downshifting though. I rev match when I downshift a gear, and double clutch + rev match when its more than 1 gear. SouthernBoy should be able to go into more detail.

I ease it into gear most of the time (may be while I got those pop-outs), especially if I'm just driving normally. I wouldn't worry about the synchros TOO much, unless you were the 1st/2nd owner and plan to keep the car for a really really long time. Issues may arise but unless you're going to keep it for 5+ years you probably won't encounter any major problems.

sonnyboyacura

I really appreciate this....

Here's so background. As I stated before, this is my 1st standard transmission. I'm open to any/all advice from knowledgeable people.

I never skip up in gears, I just row through them 1 by 1. I tried it once before but noticed that it didn't feel right, so I never tried it again.

Typically I downshift 1 by 1 also. 6-5-4 and so on. I rev match when I do that.

If I'm in 6th and need to drop into 4th for passing, that'll be the only time that I skip gears. I rev match when I do this but don't double clutch.

So, should I double clutch in both instances or just when skipping down 2 gears or so?

SouthernBoy

Ok, just got back from picking up some photos I had a shop print from some old slides of my 1966 SS396/360 Chevelle when it was box stock. I've been meaning to do this for years and finally remembered to have it done. I still have the original carbon copy order form for that car! Now for your questions about downshifting and double clutching. For my explanations, assume you're downshifting from 4th to 3rd gear.

Common method of downshifting; widely done.
o Remove foot from throttle while depressing clutch pedal.
o Move shifter into 3rd gear.
o Slowly begin to release clutch.

This is the worse method of downshifting in that it creates the most wear on the clutch components and the synchronizers.


Downshifting using the Rev-Matching method.
o Remove foot from throttle while depressing clutch pedal.
o Move shifter into 3rd gear and blip the throttle to raise engine RPMs at the same time.
o Release clutch pretty much in a normal manner.

This is a far better method than the "Common" one above. Doing this will significantly reduce clutch component wear, but will not reduce synchronizer wear any more than the first method.


Downshifting using the double clutching method.
o Remove foot from throttle while depressing clutch pedal.
o Move shifter towards 3rd gear. As you enter the neutral gate, blip the throttle while at the same time release the clutch some (or all). Fully depress the clutch again and complete the shift to 3rd gear.
o Release clutch normal (as though you were in neutral and were letting the clutch out).

This is double clutching and not only saves a boatload of wear on the clutch components, but results in a very significant reduction to synchronizer wear.


Now some explanation is in order.

When you rev-match without double clutching, you are only spinning up the engine, and the flywheel and pressure plate. Since you have the clutch disengaged, the disk is not receiving any clamping pressure and therefore the transmission input shaft plus the gears attached to it are slowing down. The "driven" gears (basically those attached to the drive wheels) are still turning at their proper speeds since they are permanently locked to the drive wheels. When your shift causes the synchronizers to mate, there is a greater difference in gear speeds, so the synchronizers (which are like little clutches) have a bit more work to do in order the bring the speeds of these gears into alignment for a completed shift (dog teeth into hubs, not gears being shifted). More work means more friction which means more wear.

When you double clutch, you are momentarily engaging the clutch as you blip the throttle while in the neutral gate. This clamps the entire clutch assembly together, transmitting engine speed through the clutch to the transmission input shaft. There will be a point at which the speed of the "drive" gears and that of the of the "driven" gears will match, and that is when you complete your shift. Virtually no clutch wear and not synchronizer wear will be the result of all of this.

Hope this helps.

TheMirror

Never mind. Answered in the post above.

Best,

-Mirror

SouthernBoy

You should always double clutch whenever downshifting. Once you get the hang of it, you'll find it's so natural, you'll wonder why you never did this before. I have been doing this since I was a teenager. Let's just say, that's a long time.. you should get a feel for how long be reading my comments about my '66 Chevelle.

I know what works and I know what is the right way and what is the wrong way. I also know that it is your car and you have every right to operate it as you see fit. However, if you want to learn the correct way to do this, it will take a little effort and time. But not that much.. really. Once you know how to do all of this, you'll be grateful for having learned a technique that most know nothing about.

Here's a link you might find helpful. Go to post #11 and read that.

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...t=downshifting


For those who might think this is all a lot to do about nothing, read this story. Well, I just tried to get the link, but the story is no longer available for free. The writer reported 315,000 miles on his clutch and still going strong in the Detroit area. The car was an early 90's Integra as I recall. He did all of the things I have talked about and his wallet is a happy camper for it.

shabaaz

You'll know it when you do a perfect double clutch downshift because the shifter goes into the next lower gear with minimal effort. There should be very little resistance. Also, the shift will be executed very smoothly, even smoother than a simple rev matched downshift. It takes a little practice to get the timing right and you won't be perfect right away. You can start off trying the whole double clutch procedure slowly to avoid grinding gears and then you'll get better and quicker after you get the hang of it.

SouthernBoy

Yep. Almost feels as though the shifter is being taken from your hand and drawn into gear.

sonnyboyacura

Southern Boy, I truly appreciate the time you took to explain this method to me. I'm going to get started on this today.

Can you clarify this for me...

"o Move shifter towards 3rd gear. As you enter the neutral gate, blip the throttle while at the same time release the clutch some (or all). Fully depress the clutch again and complete the shift to 3rd gear."

When I blip the throttle, am I in neutral or am I somewhere in between 3rd and neutral?

SouthernBoy

You are in the neutral gate (which is neutral). You stop there for a moment while you simultaneously blip the throttle and release (engage) the clutch. Then it's back in with the clutch as you complete the shift, then out with the clutch for full engagement in the lower gear.

fuzzy02CLS

iTrader: (2)

I drive the way I drive. I'm not going to change that for the sake of maybe putting more stress on a trans.
If it goes so be it.

SouthernBoy

And sir, you're perfectly entitled to do that simply because it is your property.

GreenMonster

No issues with my 6spd (03 CLS) with 69K miles on it...

sonnyboyacura

I fooled around with this a bit yesterday and even though I didn't have it down, I seemed to notice that the shift seemed "easier" on the transmission. Maybe it was just all in my head but there was something different...a bit smoother with the double clutching.

I'll work on it a bit more. Im assume that I have to do this pretty quickly so that the RPM's don't fall too much. Thats the issue I had yesterday.

SouthernBoy

I wouldn't say quickly.. more along the lines of smoothness and preciseness. If shifting speed while double clutching is in your future (such as road racing), that will most definitely take some serious time and practice.

Right now, I would concentrate on getting it down correctly and with a nice smooth transition. If engine speed (RPMs) falls too much, just blip the throttle again to raise it back up. I find myself having to do this from time to time because of sudden changes in traffic or gear selections. It happens.

SuperTrooper169

iTrader: (2)

On my way home last night I attempted this whole rev matching deal while down shifting and nearly rear ended the car in front of me because I was so out of sorts. Well maybe an exaggeration, but it was really hard for me to fathom doing that all the time. I've never rev matched or double clutched so I'm probably not going to start now, but I am going to try to limit my gear skipping. All my cars besides two were manuals and I only needed to replace the clutch in one of them so I guess I'm not doing anything too bad.

SouthernBoy

This is one technique you don't want to begin working on in real-time traffic.. that's for sure. Glad you made it through Ok.

Since you were of a mind to try it, please do give it another chance under less stressful and dangerous conditions.