LA 2007: U.S.-spec Nissan GT-R huge performance bargain at $69,850

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Old 11-14-2007, 07:23 PM
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LA 2007: U.S.-spec Nissan GT-R huge performance bargain at $69,850

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/11/14/l...ain-at-69-850/

Not only did we finally get to see the new U.S.-spec Nissan GT-R for the first time on these shores, but we also found out how much it will cost when it goes on sale next June in the States. Starting at $69,850 or slightly more for the premium package, this 7:38 Ring lapper represents a true performance bargain. In fact, with its twin-turbo 3.8L V6 churning out a healthy 480 HP and 430 ft-lbs of torque, this AWD supercar may bump the Z06 as the best bang-for-your buck when you factor in the practicality of its design. Fans of the new GT-R are well-versed in what they get for that money and can now see the undisguised face and tail in American trim. Carlos Ghosn himself revealed the car after we were teased with a quick animated trailer in which the GT-R led a certain German Turbo around various tracks and roads, seemingly without working up a sweat. That aforementioned Ring time certainly seems to back up the performance claims. Look for the GT-R in a select group of Nissan dealers that meet specific and stringent certification standards by early summer. Pre-orders will start in January, but we suggest you buy a tent and start camping out now.
PRESS RELEASE:

All New 2009 Nissan GT-R Comes To North America –
Multi-Dimensional Supercar Available in June 2008

The all-new 2009 Nissan GT-R, the fifth-generation of the legendary Nissan supercar, makes its North American debut at the 2007 Los Angeles Auto Show in November, following its worldwide debut at the Tokyo Motor Show in October 2007. No longer the unobtainable object of desire on a video game or in the movies, the GT-R will be available on sale for the first time in North American in June 2008.

GT-R is a multi-dimensional performance machine that lives up to the concept of "the ultimate supercar that can be driven by anyone, anytime, anywhere" and achieved a lap time of 7:38 around the famed Nürburgring Nordschleife, one of the fastest times achieved by a production-spec vehicle to date.

Packaging and Driveline Suited for a Supercar
The new Nissan GT-R is built on an exclusive all-new Premium Midship platform. This new platform enables the use of a world's first independent rear transaxle ATTESA E-TS all-wheel drive system, which optimizes weight distribution and handling capability. This layout places the transmission, transfer case and final drive at the rear of the vehicle, without the use of traditional torque tubes, allowing the suspension to operate independently and optimizing tire grip at each corner.

Under the hood, the Nissan GT-R features an all-new hand-built VR series 3.8-liter twin turbo V6 producing 480 horsepower @ 6,400 rpm and 430 lb-ft of torque @ 3,200 to 5,200 rpm, while meeting ultra-low emission vehicle (ULEV) standards.

The all-new VR38 engine, named VR38DETT, features innovative plasma-sprayed bores replacing cast iron liners for reduced friction, lighter weight, enhanced cooling, power output and fuel efficiency; a symmetrical independent intake and exhaust manifold system featuring twin high-performance IHI turbochargers; a secondary air management system for improved cold-start emissions performance; a thermostatically controlled oil-cooling system; an oil scavenger pump to maintain oil flowing to the turbochargers; and a lateral wet and dry sump oiling system. All GT-R engines are hand-built in a clean room environment at the Nissan Yokohama engine plant.
The VR38DETT is backed by an all-new, paddle-shifted GR6 sequential 6-speed dual clutch rear transaxle, which can be driver selected to shift at race car-like speeds. The sequential-shifting transaxle features separate wet clutches for the odd (1,3,5) and even (2,4,6) gears and pre-selects the next highest and next lowest gear for immediate shifts. It also features Hill Start Assist for easy starts on uphill inclines.

Contributing to overall vehicle balance and low center of gravity, the unique offset input and reaction shaft design of the GR6 rear transaxle enables a shorter design profile versus a typical manual transmission, moving the concentration of powertrain weight lower in the vehicle.

Putting the power to the ground is an electronically-controlled ATTESA E-TS all-wheel-drive system specifically developed for GT-R. The rear drive-biased system can vary torque split from 0:100 to 50:50 depending on speed, lateral acceleration, steering angles, tire slip, road surface and yaw rate. Of note is a special GT-R-specific yaw-rate feedback control, which measures the differences between the target yaw rate calculated from steering angle and actual yaw rate detected by the yaw-rate sensor and G sensor to adjust torque bias.

Handling duties are managed by a sophisticated 4-wheel independent suspension system mounted to high-precision six-point front and rear subframes.

A special Bilstein DampTronic driver adjustable shock absorber system utilizes multiple vehicle information systems to provide appropriate damping forces and high level of control for a variety of driving situations. The DampTronic system features three driver selectable settings - Normal; Comfort, for maximum suspension compliance; or "R," for ultimate handling. The same three-stage adjustability is available for the VDC system and transmission shift operation, which also includes a Snow mode.

Stopping power is provided by Brembo mono block six-piston front and four-piston rear calipers with large 15-inch Brembo full-floating cross-drilled two-piece rotors and low-steel high-stiffness brake pads which minimize fade and provide intense stopping performance. The calipers utilize race car-style radial mounting to minimize caliper flex during extreme braking.

GT-R-specific lightweight forged 20-inch wheels, with special knurling to assist with securing the tires during hard acceleration or braking, are shod with nitrogen-filled Bridgestone high-performance summer run-flat tires specifically designed for the GT-R, sized 255/40ZRF20 front and 285/35ZRF20 rear. High-performance Dunlop all-season tires are also available.

GT-R's Signature Functional Design – High Performance Aerodynamics and Style
The Nissan GT-R's styling follows the "function over form" theory. Every styling aspect, from the overall design to the smallest details, is created to maximize the vehicle's driving experience – as well as suggest GT-R's "supercar" level of performance. Utilizing advanced aerodynamics, GT-R's aggressive styling evokes the lines of a well-trained athlete, combining strong character lines with smooth and solid areas.

The all-new GT-R's hybrid body construction is created with a combination of steel, carbon fiber and die-cast aluminum, providing a unique combination of stiffness, precision and lightness. The body features a low coefficient of drag of 0.27 while achieving high front and rear downforce, providing stability and handling performance in a wide range of driving conditions.

GT-R's front fenders express power and stability, while the "aero-blades" on the fenders' leading edges provide optimum airflow around the tires and along the body. The vents in the fenders' trailing edges assists in providing front downforce and optimizing side air flow. The aggressive front end, with a large hood budge and single central air intake, provides a sophisticated style as well as undisturbed air flow for power and cooling.
New "super wide beam" headlights feature three additional sub-reflectors (compared to conventional lights) to give a wide illumination spread.

The Nissan GT-R's four-passenger cabin features a sloping "aero blade canopy" roofline and curved C-pillar "sword edge," which expresses the distinctive GT-R identity, as well as facilitating air flow around the rear of the vehicle. The signature rear view of the GT-R is provided by its hallmark four-ring taillights, while air flow above and below the vehicle is managed by the functional rear carbon fiber underbody diffuser, rear spoiler and large, integrated quad exhaust tips.

GT-R's advanced technology is present even in the vehicle's paint, which utilizes a durable anti-chip paint and "double clear coat" process. A special seven-coat silver paint color is available, which is baked five times and is also hand-polished by craftsman.

An Interior Suitable for Daily Driving or Supercar Duties
Key to the Nissan GT-R's usability as a both daily driver and a high-performance machine is its interior, which is designed to balance functionality and comfort. It provides comfortable four-passenger seating and trunk capacity of two golf bags or suitcases.

Sculpted performance bucket seats give the driver and passenger a comfortable driving experience, and soft pads are utilized on the dash in front of the passenger and both doors to give an extra level of comfort. The rear transaxle layout of GT-R, with a flat floor and narrow center tunnel, allows GT-R to have an optimal driving position.

A cockpit-style instrument panel surrounds the driver, with all meters and multi-function meter at a uniform height to minimize the driver's head movement. A large center-mounted tachometer, with gear display on its upper right, as well as the easy-to-read graphics of the display, gives the driver instant detailed information, essential for the performance nature of the GT-R.

Functional style is also evident in GT-R's interior – each meter features a dial plate design that evokes the idea of engaged gears, as well as a three-dimensional metal-like ring, suggesting the multi-dimensional performance of GT-R. A large, metallic-framed center console features an ergonomically designed shift lever and a red "engine start" button.

The centerpiece of the instrument panel is a video game-inspired multi-function display. Eleven pages of information are available on this system, including mechanical and driving information, acceleration, brake pedal pressure, steering angle and a recording function with playback. Additional on-screen information includes a Navigation system, enhanced entertainment system with a Music Box Hard Drive and a Bluetooth® Hands-free Phone System.

An available specially-designed 11-speaker Bose® audio system features two forward-facing woofers in the rear center armrest area. Rigid aluminum die cast panel-mounting of all speakers allowed Bose engineers to perfect the acoustical performance of the GT-R sound system.

High-Performance Safety Technologies
The Nissan GT-R offers a long list of safety features, including, for enhanced visibility inside and out of the vehicle, high-mounted LED stoplights, bright LED rear combination taillights, "super wide beam" headlights, heated door mirrors and flat-blade windshield wipers.

Standard safety equipment includes a Nissan Advanced Air Bag System for driver and front passenger, front seat belts with pretensioner and load limiters and tension reducers, and three-point ELR/ALR rear seat belts. Driver and front passenger SRS Side Air Bag System and SRS Curtain Air Bag System are also available.








Old 11-14-2007, 07:57 PM
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What is the over/under for mark-up. The GT500 was 30k. I am sure that this will be about that much. If I had the cash flow I wouldn't think twice. Mark-up and all.
Old 11-14-2007, 08:26 PM
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I need to convince my pops to sell his C6 and get this bad boy
Old 11-14-2007, 08:28 PM
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if this car actually sold at that price i would drop all my plans for a home and get this car. Fortunately for my family there is no way in hell this car will sell for anything near that price.
Old 11-14-2007, 08:34 PM
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Can't sell for above MSRP up here. Too bad it will likely MSRP for 90K.

I think this is my new favorite car.
Old 11-14-2007, 08:38 PM
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$70k is a big number guys ... Maybe not new but there are some damn good cars you can get for that amount ... Like a C6 Z06 for example.
Old 11-14-2007, 09:33 PM
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duuude, its $69k, not $70k... don't exaggerate.
Old 11-14-2007, 09:41 PM
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Its gonna be a challenge. Americans are not accustomed to shell out 70 Gs on a Nissan.

I am really interested in seeing whats gonna happen in the future. Will Nissan be at the same level of Infiniti? Should Nissan consider on branding all their products under Nissan like in almost the entire world? Should it include a 4-year bumper-to-bumper warranty instead of 3?

Will see.
Old 11-14-2007, 09:55 PM
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yeah no way in hell anyones gonna get one of these at anywhere near msrp for the first year...
Old 11-14-2007, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by srika
duuude, its $69k, not $70k... don't exaggerate.
Old 11-14-2007, 10:18 PM
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If you get Nissan quality service then hell no. It's a damn nice car and Nissan did a good job with it...but I would not trust the service departments with it at all.

MAYBE if you could take it to the Infiniti dealer...
Old 11-14-2007, 10:23 PM
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this is very very nice!
Old 11-15-2007, 03:00 AM
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for 70-90K I would import a R34 before I buy that...nothing like having the real skyline just my 2 cents...
Old 11-15-2007, 03:04 AM
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For 70k, this is a bargain.

My M5 costed me $105k after tax. So $77k including tax is a deal. I need to find a dealer willing to sell at MSRP. I think i will sell my M5, and pick up a M3 sedan and this for weekend.
Old 11-15-2007, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by zamo
Its gonna be a challenge. Americans are not accustomed to shell out 70 Gs on a Nissan.
Who would've thought Americans would be accustomed to shelling out $70k for a "Chevy", or $80k for a "Dodge"? And 20 years ago, Americans weren't accustomed to shelling out over $30k for any Japanese car either. Things change...it's called "progress".


I am really interested in seeing whats gonna happen in the future. Will Nissan be at the same level of Infiniti? Should Nissan consider on branding all their products under Nissan like in almost the entire world? Should it include a 4-year bumper-to-bumper warranty instead of 3?

How does one low volume niche car raise nissan to the level of infiniti?

Does the Corvette raise Chevy to the level of Cadillacs? Does a Toyota Landcruiser raise all toyotas to the level of Lexus? Does the Viper elevate Dodges to the level of...uh, any other "premium" brand?
Old 11-15-2007, 08:14 AM
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How come no one had a problem shelling out $150,000 for a Ford GT40?
Old 11-15-2007, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno
Who would've thought Americans would be accustomed to shelling out $70k for a "Chevy", or $80k for a "Dodge"? And 20 years ago, Americans weren't accustomed to shelling out over $30k for any Japanese car either. Things change...it's called "progress".
You are answering your second question here.


Originally Posted by mrdeeno
How does one low volume niche car raise nissan to the level of infiniti?

Does the Corvette raise Chevy to the level of Cadillacs? Does a Toyota Landcruiser raise all toyotas to the level of Lexus? Does the Viper elevate Dodges to the level of...uh, any other "premium" brand?
Japanese brands do it all the time outside the US.
Old 11-15-2007, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno
Who would've thought Americans would be accustomed to shelling out $70k for a "Chevy", or $80k for a "Dodge"? And 20 years ago, Americans weren't accustomed to shelling out over $30k for any Japanese car either. Things change...it's called "progress".
Originally Posted by 04EuroAccordTsx
How come no one had a problem shelling out $150,000 for a Ford GT40?
Because in America those cars have a history and are well known. Also have a racing pedigree that goes along with them.

While the GTR has that in Japan, most Americans have no clue about it.

Its a great car and will sell well, but dont think it will sell as well as everyone is making it out to be. IMO
Old 11-15-2007, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by chiawei
For 70k, this is a bargain.

My M5 costed me $105k after tax. So $77k including tax is a deal. I need to find a dealer willing to sell at MSRP. I think i will sell my M5, and pick up a M3 sedan and this for weekend.
What the heck do you do for a living?!?


If they made this car with the G37's engine and same body for like $40k, i would buy it in a heartbeat but i'll never be able to afford that price tag
Old 11-15-2007, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by zamo
You are answering your second question here.



Japanese brands do it all the time outside the US.
Either you don't understand what I said, or you don't make any sense. My first and second statements deal with separate issues you brought up. The first doesn't answer the 2nd.

My first statement concerns pricing of niche models, which do not adhere to traditional mass-market models, hence the pricing of the corvette, viper, GT40, GT-R. The pricing of these models are not affected by the "branding". The only thing that Americans need to get accustomed to is a $70k Nissan, because there has not been a $70k nissan in the U.S. market before now. But it's called "progress", which is why before there wasn't, now there was.


The 2nd question concerns your statement about Nissan's level and Infiniti's level. Again, I bring up the same cars as my first statement, not regarding price, but regarding brand image. The brand image of these "niche" cars did not raise the brand image level of their brands to that of a higher brand...ie Chevy is not Cadillac, Nissan is not Infiniti, Toyota is not Lexus.
Old 11-15-2007, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Crazy Sellout
Because in America those cars have a history and are well known. Also have a racing pedigree that goes along with them.

While the GTR has that in Japan, most Americans have no clue about it.

Its a great car and will sell well, but dont think it will sell as well as everyone is making it out to be. IMO
I think they're going to sell every model they import.

Last time I looked, they aren't planning on marketing this car to "most Americans". It's a niche car for a niche segment of enthusiasts that know what a GT-R is.
Old 11-15-2007, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno
Either you don't understand what I said, or you don't make any sense. My first and second statements deal with separate issues you brought up. The first doesn't answer the 2nd.

My first statement concerns pricing of niche models, which do not adhere to traditional mass-market models, hence the pricing of the corvette, viper, GT40, GT-R. The pricing of these models are not affected by the "branding". The only thing that Americans need to get accustomed to is a $70k Nissan, because there has not been a $70k nissan in the U.S. market before now. But it's called "progress", which is why before there wasn't, now there was.


The 2nd question concerns your statement about Nissan's level and Infiniti's level. Again, I bring up the same cars as my first statement, not regarding price, but regarding brand image. The brand image of these "niche" cars did not raise the brand image level of their brands to that of a higher brand...ie Chevy is not Cadillac, Nissan is not Infiniti, Toyota is not Lexus.
Toyota is Lexus. You have a different "Brand Image" towards those brands and that's good; we prove that marketing strategies and brand differentiation are working for Toyota.

Nissan is Infiniti. The I35 is marketed as the Nissan Maxima in other countries. The M is the Nissa Fuga. So at least for me, Infiniti is just the higher models Nissan marketed to the US.
Old 11-15-2007, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno
I think they're going to sell every model they import.

Last time I looked, they aren't planning on marketing this car to "most Americans". It's a niche car for a niche segment of enthusiasts that know what a GT-R is.

@1500 units a year - Thats going to be a very easy thing to do.
Old 11-15-2007, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by zamo
Toyota is Lexus. You have a different "Brand Image" towards those brands and that's good; we prove that marketing strategies and brand differentiation are working for Toyota.

Nissan is Infiniti. The I35 is marketed as the Nissan Maxima in other countries. The M is the Nissa Fuga. So at least for me, Infiniti is just the higher models Nissan marketed to the US.
things are progressing for Nissan just as it is for Toyota and Honda...the brands will be more and more separated as they introduce the premium brands into other countries, including Japan.

Going back to your original question:
Will Nissan be at the same level of Infiniti? Should Nissan consider on branding all their products under Nissan like in almost the entire world?
Why would they go backwards and brand everything under Nissan, when the plan is to move the OPPOSITE direction and separate Nissan and Infiniti further? The introduction of the GT-R under Nissan doesn't change that considering it's ONE niche model that is staying a Nissan to retain its heritage. Just because a Landcruiser costs upwards of $50k doesn't mean it should just be a "Lexus" based on price or that Toyota should just merge Lexus back in under its umbrella. Just because a corvette costs upwards of $60k doesn't mean it should be a Caddy based on price or that Chevy should merge Caddy back under its umbrella.

Would the GTR sell if it was branded an Infiniti? I"m sure it would. Would it sell if it was branded a Nissan? I'm sure it would. But the advantage of keeping it a Nissan is it doesn't piss off the old guys who do know the heritage of the GT-R, so it's a win-win keeping it a Nissan instead of an Infiniti. It has nothing to do with market level of Infiniti or Nissan or whether they plan to roll everything under Nissan or not.

Last edited by mrdeeno; 11-15-2007 at 09:34 AM.
Old 11-15-2007, 09:46 AM
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Some old guys can get pissed off if they see that their Nissan Skyline is being changed to Infiniti G.

Just as a note, it has happened many times to me when I used to talk about my CL-S in the Americas, people always referred to it as "Oh, thats Honda right?". Honda is a reputable brand, so no need to market it as Acura though.
Old 11-15-2007, 09:54 AM
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well zamo you should've mentioned that to Honda way back in 1986 when they introduced Acura. Actually w/o Acura there wouldn't be Lexus or Infiniti at all.
Old 11-15-2007, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by zamo
Some old guys can get pissed off if they see that their Nissan Skyline is being changed to Infiniti G.
Yeah, but the Nissan skyline does not carry as much "image weight" as the GT-R.


Just as a note, it has happened many times to me when I used to talk about my CL-S in the Americas, people always referred to it as "Oh, thats Honda right?". Honda is a reputable brand, so no need to market it as Acura though.
Uh, considering that Acura can't sell anything over $50k, they are probably better off marking Acuras as Hondas.
Old 11-15-2007, 10:24 AM
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The fact that this is badged a nissan and costs 70k (sorry srika, I meant 69k) will not deter buyers. This car is a super car and anyone who buys it is buying the performance and not the image necessarily. As many have mentioned this GT-R is geared for enthusiasts, not Johnny Image who is debating whether to buy a 325ci or a C230. This is geared towards people debating whether to buy a Z06, Viper, RS4, or some other PERFORMANCE car like an M3 or something. Occasionally you might get someone cross-shopping a Porsche or something "higher end" with the GT-R.

And thank goodness it is 69k (and definitely more) because it will keep and those crazy kids from getting it, at least initially. No offense to the youngsters who are responsible drivers and enthusiasts.

Unfortunately I will have to wait before I can even consider this car as these damn school loans are killing me and my wife is about to add her student loans to it!!!
Old 11-15-2007, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by SakiGT
@1500 units a year - Thats going to be a very easy thing to do.

Didnt know it was that limited.

Nevermind then.
Old 11-15-2007, 11:21 AM
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I was going to post my but, Deeno pretty much posted how I feel.
Old 11-15-2007, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno
Yeah, but the Nissan skyline does not carry as much "image weight" as the GT-R.
In the USA. In Japan, the GT-R was (or is, dunno right now) a Nissan Skyline.

Originally Posted by mrdeeno
Uh, considering that Acura can't sell anything over $50k, they are probably better off marking Acuras as Hondas.
In the USA.

I see Honda Legends being sold for over $60K.
Old 11-15-2007, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by zamo
In the USA.

I see Honda Legends being sold for over $60K.
They are having a hard enough time selling 'Honda Legends' @ $50k (or less).
Old 11-15-2007, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by F23A4
They are having a hard enough time selling 'Honda Legends' @ $50k (or less).
Oh, I was referring to "Outside the USA" scope.

Right now all brands are hurting across America.
Old 11-15-2007, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by zamo
In the USA. In Japan, the GT-R was (or is, dunno right now) a Nissan Skyline.



In the USA.

I see Honda Legends being sold for over $60K.
The former R34 was known as the nissan skyline GT-R. In 02-03 the nissan skyline 350GT took the skyline name which in the US is the infiniti G35. The all new Nissan GT-R is simply that. NISSAN GT-R. In no longer shares ties with the Skyline name.

RL sales are horrible. They have been from the start.
Old 11-15-2007, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by zamo
Oh, I was referring to "Outside the USA" scope.
dude, make up your mind what you are talking about...

First you question whether Americans would be accustomed to a $70k Nissan or not. Then you question whether Nissan would bring Infiniti models back under its umbrella, implying that you are talking about the American market (since of course if there was no Infiniti in another market, then how would they roll it back under the Nissan brand?).

But now you are referring to "Outside the USA" scope?

Inside OR outside the U.S., the "skyline" is not an icon by any means. The skyline GT-R was regarded as an icon, but was definitely regarded as separate from the everyman's skyline. So no one really cares that a Nissan Skyline is branded an Infiniti G35. But messing with the branding of an ICON, such as a GT-R? That's why they kept it under the Nissan brand. Again, it has NOTHING to do with any plans, or lack thereof, of rolling Infiniti models back under the Nissan brand.


Right now all brands are hurting across America.
Uh, please check your facts. Some brands are hurting while others are doing well.
Old 11-15-2007, 12:06 PM
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Am I the only one that hates that IS-F-like vent behind the front wheel arch? It looks so ricey already......
Old 11-15-2007, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno
But now you are referring to "Outside the USA" scope?
Right. I was comparing America with the Americas and the rest of the world, and why Acura as a brand does not work.

Originally Posted by mrdeeno
Again, it has NOTHING to do with any plans, or lack thereof, of rolling Infiniti models back under the Nissan brand.
There is no evidence that supports it, but is a good assumption. Some people assumed that the GT-R was coming to the US as Infiniti and it did not.

Originally Posted by mrdeeno
Uh, please check your facts. Some brands are hurting while others are doing well.
Checking facts: http://www.businessweek.com/autos/co...111_603373.htm
Old 11-15-2007, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by 03TL-S
The former R34 was known as the nissan skyline GT-R. In 02-03 the nissan skyline 350GT took the skyline name which in the US is the infiniti G35. The all new Nissan GT-R is simply that. NISSAN GT-R. In no longer shares ties with the Skyline name.
Smart Move from Nissan.
Old 11-15-2007, 01:05 PM
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Old 11-15-2007, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by zamo
Right. I was comparing America with the Americas and the rest of the world, and why Acura as a brand does not work.
Acura doesn't work well for Honda, but Infiniti and Lexus are working very well for Nissan and Toyota. Acura would be more likely to have to roll its models back under Honda than either Infiniti or Lexus.


Thanks for checking the facts and proving my point...

You stated that all brands are hurting, which is not the case. Some brands are down, some brands are up. therefore NOT all brands are hurting.

Last edited by mrdeeno; 11-15-2007 at 01:24 PM.


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