Acura: TSX news **Wagon Announced for North America (page 57)**

[dom]

Originally Posted by biker They might be wrong sometimes but they've been better than just about anyone and have kept Honda in the black. But when they're wrong, they're very wrong.... I don't think its a secret as to what's kept Honda in the black all this time. Their bread and butter cars are very good. But they've had some flops to go around. Even if the Wagon doesn't sell to their expectations its a low risk vehicle sold outside of NA so who cares. What worries me more is a situation like Colin described earlier. If dealers can only stock so many TSX's and Acura begins forcing them to take the slower selling Wagon's over the sedan, then I'd be worried.

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[sr4dt]

What would be really great is if they can bring over the Diesel Engine over to NA and price it at about $3000 over the 4cyl gasoline. It may not sell in big numbers, but it will give HMC a great oppurtunity to get their feet wet with diesel car market in NA with very little incremental tooling or setup cost.

[Colin]

Originally Posted by dom

What worries me more is a situation like Colin described earlier. If dealers can only stock so many TSX's and Acura begins forcing them to take the slower selling Wagon's over the sedan, then I'd be worried.

Over at TOV, Varmint did some 'fun with numbers' responding to the manual transmission question. Hopefully he won't mind my crosspost.

The trick is finding the sweet spot. Offering too many options cuts into profits. Offering too few cuts into sales.

Fun with numbers... This year, Acura dealers are averaging 2,366 TSX units per month. If we guess that a wagon will provide another 25% in sales (which is really, really generous, IMO), then Acura will earn another 592 units of the wagon/month.

Let's give Acura the benefit of the doubt and say the 6MT represents 5% of all TSX sales. Furthermore, let's be generous once more and say the wagon will earn the same take rate. That means about 30 wagons will be sold with the 6MT each month.

There are more than 250 Acura dealers in North America. That means each dealership will get a single 6MT-equipped TSX wagon every 8 months. (On average.)

Currently, the TSX is offered in 7 exterior colors. These are made in lots, and the lots are not equal in quantity. For example, they make more silver cars than red ones. Still, if we assume that Acura builds only the 5 most popular colors, that means a dealer may need to trade or wait for specific colors in their allocations. A dealer might get a silver wagon as their first car, then have to wait 3 years to get another.

Meanwhile, they have 1 red and 1 blue that have been taking up space on the lots and costing them $ in the form of taxes for a year or two. They'll probably sell those below cost to a dog groomer just to get rid of them.

Obviously, quite a few of these numbers are the product of guesswork and averages. They should not be treated as actual allocations. They're just examples for discussion. But if you want to get nit-picky... consider what happens if they offer a base and a tech package?

[biker]

Originally Posted by sr4dt

What would be really great is if they can bring over the Diesel Engine over to NA and price it at about $3000 over the 4cyl gasoline. It may not sell in big numbers, but it will give HMC a great oppurtunity to get their feet wet with diesel car market in NA with very little incremental tooling or setup cost.

The trick to diesel adoption is aggressive pricing - a 3K premium is way too much. They also need to have it available in the lowest trim level (don't offer it only on the most expensive model) and at about a 1-2K premium. Make it a no brainer choice for the consumer - like it is with the E320CDi from MB. Maybe that's what convinced Honda - the very well selling Jetta diesel Sportwagon.

[biker]

Originally Posted by Colin

Over at TOV, Varmint did some 'fun with numbers' responding to the manual transmission question. Hopefully he won't mind my crosspost.

Maybe the current economic situation and some more willing dealers will start to change the US consumer's instant gratification mentality and allow for more factory ordered cars. Then the stocking/configuration issue goes away.

[sr4dt]

Originally Posted by biker

The trick to diesel adoption is aggressive pricing - a 3K premium is way too much. They also need to have it available in the lowest trim level (don't offer it only on the most expensive model) and at about a 1-2K premium. Make it a no brainer choice for the consumer - like it is with the E320CDi from MB. Maybe that's what convinced Honda - the very well selling Jetta diesel Sportwagon.

The reason I said $3K premium is that most likely Diesel will be considered fuel efficient and will be eligible for a Federal Tax credit and in some states Fuel efficient vehicles have lower sales/state tax. Keeping all of those in consideration Acura may want to get some $$$ where as the Customer still pays the same net amount for a new car. This will also leave some wiggle room for future discounts and lease promotions too.

[biker]

Originally Posted by sr4dt

The reason I said $3K premium is that most likely Diesel will be considered fuel efficient and will be eligible for a Federal Tax credit and in some states Fuel efficient vehicles have lower sales/state tax. Keeping all of those in consideration Acura may want to get some $$$ where as the Customer still pays the same net amount for a new car. This will also leave some wiggle room for future discounts and lease promotions too.

The problem with anything other than an instant discount is that the typical American consumer has too much of an instant gratification mentality to properly consider a tax break which comes much later. If Cash for Clunkers would have been a tax credit instead of the instant cash (which in reality the dealer provided) it would have been a much different story (much lower) as far sales numbers.
At the time of the sale the premium can't be more than 2K and preferably should be 1K. Until last year MB charged just 1K more for an E320BT over an E350. That's what Honda/Acura needs to do.

[Colin]

Originally Posted by biker

Maybe the current economic situation and some more willing dealers will start to change the US consumer's instant gratification mentality and allow for more factory ordered cars. Then the stocking/configuration issue goes away.

LOL and in my world there are rainbows everywhere and unicorns prancing about....

It is a three pronged approach. Consumers, Dealers and the Factory. IMO, the factory (probably) doesn't want to do it cause it increases production costs, the dealers (probably) don't want it cause they're afraid customers will cancel, and IMO our (Acura) customers still don't want to wait 3 months for "just" an Acura.

Now whether it should be different is open to discussion, but I think there is no denying that currently this mentality exists.

[Colin]

Originally Posted by biker

At the time of the sale the premium can't be more than 2K and preferably should be 1K. Until last year MB charged just 1K more for an E320BT over an E350. That's what Honda/Acura needs to do.

Several months ago, I saw an interview on Autoline Detroit with Audi's Johan de Nysschen. He pegged the cost of a diesel option at (as I recall) 4-5,000 per car. John McElroy gasped and said you can't charge that and de Nysschen agreed. Suggesting the selling diesel is a money losing proposition. I don't see Honda entering into a program that would lose money to gain market share. If they wanted to do that, they could have dropped the Insight selling price to create more of a gap to the Prius.

[Fishy]

^^ Exactly. Diesel in NA is a dumb idea. Honda's profitable and got good market share. VW in NA is losing a billion a year, in part because they're selling those dumb diesel Jetta SportWagons at a loss.

[dom]

Originally Posted by Colin

Over at TOV, Varmint did some 'fun with numbers' responding to the manual transmission question. Hopefully he won't mind my crosspost.

So if we're taking guesses on how the Wagon we'll be offered. I'm going with V6, AT (obviously), Tech as the only option.

to a dog groomer

[(Cj)]

Originally Posted by dom

So if we're taking guesses on how the Wagon we'll be offered. I'm going with V6, AT (obviously), Tech as the only option.

I don't think that it will be offered with the V6 honestly. For one BMW and Audi don't offer their sport wagons with their highest spec engine. The only 3 series wagon you can get is the 328 and the only A4 Avant you can get is the 2.0L (although Quattro comes standard). And both BMW and Audi only offer their Wagons with one transmission option.

On a separate note, I rarely see BMW or even Audi wagons around. The only wagons I see are Volvo and Volkswagen and I see few of them. I'm still not sure if this was the "best" move for Acura, but it's a low risks move.

A coupe would have still been better, but that would have entailed actual development costs. Honda doesn't' seem interested in spending much money on Acura anymore, so I'm not surprised.

[Colin]

Originally Posted by dom

So if we're taking guesses on how the Wagon we'll be offered. I'm going with V6, AT (obviously), Tech as the only option.

Considering the cost of the V6 sedan, I'd say we'll see the 4 cylinder only. This would make sense if this is to be a more fuel efficient alternative to the RDX.

[black label]

Originally Posted by dom

So if we're taking guesses on how the Wagon we'll be offered. I'm going with V6, AT (obviously), Tech as the only option.

Based on what I've heard from someone who was at the meeting and has actually seen this vehicle in person, there will be 2 offerings. Fully loaded 4 cylinder and fully loaded 6 cylinder.

[Colin]

Originally Posted by black label

Based on what I've heard from someone who was at the meeting and has actually seen this vehicle in person, there will be 2 offerings. Fully loaded 4 cylinder and fully loaded 6 cylinder.

Now that would be a different strategy!

[visuelz]

I doubt Honda will bring a diesel over to the US. This is because we are trying to get rid of our dependence on fossil fuel.

[(Cj)]

Originally Posted by black label

Based on what I've heard from someone who was at the meeting and has actually seen this vehicle in person, there will be 2 offerings. Fully loaded 4 cylinder and fully loaded 6 cylinder.

Sounds good to me, but that would mean the V6 TSX Wagon would costs way more than the FWD TL.

Thats not a bad thing, but I'm not sure people will buy a $40K Acura wagon even if it has a V6.

[Colin]

^^I have serious doubts that anyone is interested in a wagon at all.

[Colin]

Originally Posted by black label

Based on what I've heard from someone who was at the meeting and has actually seen this vehicle in person, there will be 2 offerings. Fully loaded 4 cylinder and fully loaded 6 cylinder.

I also heard that there was an underwhelmed gasp when the car was unveiled.

[phee]

i think acura will give it SH-awd. that seems to be the way they are going. all cars will have SH-awd.

that paired with a v6 wagon will be a real dream. and murder competition.

i would pay more for a v6 sh-awd tsx than the tl.

[biker]

Originally Posted by visuelz

I doubt Honda will bring a diesel over to the US. This is because we are trying to get rid of our dependence on fossil fuel.

You know what diesels are for, right?

[biker]

Originally Posted by Colin

Several months ago, I saw an interview on Autoline Detroit with Audi's Johan de Nysschen. He pegged the cost of a diesel option at (as I recall) 4-5,000 per car. John McElroy gasped and said you can't charge that and de Nysschen agreed. Suggesting the selling diesel is a money losing proposition. I don't see Honda entering into a program that would lose money to gain market share. If they wanted to do that, they could have dropped the Insight selling price to create more of a gap to the Prius.

That just can't be right since everyone has been selling huge quantities of diesels in Europe for many years and the cost difference is not that high. Folks in Europe actually do the math when buying a car to see if the diesel engine premium makes sense. It would never make sense at a 4-5K premium on the typical 20K car. It could be that due to the tree huggers' regs, EPA testing and some design changes the engine would have a high cost initially, but there not that much difference between a modern DI engine and a diesel in terms of manufacturing. Even tho it makes no sense financially lots of folks are paying the huge premium of the Jetta diesel Sportwagon. If nothing else Honda could pick off those low hanging fruit.

[Fishy]

^^ Petrol is more expensive than diesel in Europe, in some countries it can be 1/3 more. Its all due to taxes and that's why those dumb passenger car diesels are popular in Europe.

Secondly, the emission standards are lower in Europe so those filthy, dirty diesels are cheaper to make for the Euro market than the US market.

Diesels are for transfering our dependence on one form of fossil fuel to another. Kind of like giving smack to a crack addict.

The long term goal is to stop burning hydrocarbons because it stinks, as anyone who goes WOT realizes. All those emission controls mean squat once you step on the gas.

[mrmako]

Originally Posted by Fishy

^^ Petrol is more expensive than diesel in Europe, in some countries it can be 1/3 more. Its all due to taxes and that's why those dumb passenger car diesels are popular in Europe.

Exactly. More than 50% of the price is tax (in Germany).

Secondly, the emission standards are lower in Europe so those filthy, dirty diesels are cheaper to make for the Euro market than the US market.

Yes, somewhat true. There is a mandate for vehicles made after a certain date to be "mit Katalysator", or with a catalytic converter. But they also have rules on cars in the cities and an additional tax to drive in the city.

Diesels are for transfering our dependence on one form of fossil fuel to another. Kind of like giving smack to a crack addict.

The long term goal is to stop burning hydrocarbons because it stinks, as anyone who goes WOT realizes. All those emission controls mean squat once you step on the gas.

Honda will probably not go the diesel route. It's just not a money maker.

[biker]

^ I have been to a lot of places in Europe and there's no place that I've ever seen petrol 1/3 more than diesel. In general, the price in general is even with or slightly below the price of regular. They are popular because they make sense financially. With a 1-2K premium and diesel prices at current levels they make sense in the US as well.

The emission standards used to be lower in Europe - not anymore. The tree huggers there are catching up with the CA wackos.

Short term, the use of diesels will lower everyone's dependence on fossil fuels. The real gain in adoption of diesels is long term. The most promising long term solution is bio-diesel. Guess what - the makers with the best "regular" diesel solutions will the best positioned to take advantage of that.

The newest diesels don't produce any more exhaust than a gasser - they can't by regulation. And if you happen to feed a diesel the leftovers from the McDs frying vat you'll get a real nice odor of fries.

[Fishy]

^ link to prices in europe: http://www.drive-alive.co.uk/fuel_prices_europe.html

Yes, it's truly impressive how McD's has super-sized Americans , but I doubt that biodiesel from all sources (i.e. Jack in the Box, Wendy's etc.) is enough to sustain the current driving needs.

The best use for diesel is in large or stationary engines that have limited operational ranges within which they are made the most efficient and have the lowest emissions.

[biker]

Originally Posted by Fishy

Yes, it's truly impressive how McD's has super-sized Americans , but I doubt that biodiesel from all sources (i.e. Jack in the Box, Wendy's etc.) is enough to sustain the current driving needs.

The best use for diesel is in large or stationary engines that have limited operational ranges within which they are made the most efficient and have the lowest emissions.

If you convert the ethanol plants to making bio-diesel and ramp up that capacity then a huge dent can be made into the fossil fuel issue. My point is that if Honda can get ahead of the diesel curve which I think will inevitably come, they'll be better positioned to take advantage of bio-diesels when they arrive. The TSX wagon is a good vehicle with which to test the waters. And unlike BMW (and the mistaken Accord hybrid) they should go for the fuel economy, not performance.

[black label]

Got a little more info on this today. Apparently the one that was rolled out at the dealer meeting was powered by an diesel engine. Don't get excited, were not geting a diesel TSX in the states, that is just what they chose to slap the power plenum on

Supposedly (not sure I believe this but) they are saying that the TSX wagon could accomodate a AWD driveline. if I believe it but the guy who told me does work for Acura corporate.

[LuvMyTSX]

Interesting. AWD would be great.

[SSFTSX]

Originally Posted by Colin

Several months ago, I saw an interview on Autoline Detroit with Audi's Johan de Nysschen. He pegged the cost of a diesel option at (as I recall) 4-5,000 per car. John McElroy gasped and said you can't charge that and de Nysschen agreed. Suggesting the selling diesel is a money losing proposition. I don't see Honda entering into a program that would lose money to gain market share. If they wanted to do that, they could have dropped the Insight selling price to create more of a gap to the Prius.

how is diesel monely losing proposition.? R&D costs are already expensed on global basis. in VW Diesel penetration is now approaching 40%. Golf/Toureg will further improve it.
diesel depreciate slower.
Even $5K is not big difference. for luxury car.
HS250h is $3K expensive than IS250 for similar equiped. and more than $10k than Prius.
Money losing propositon is cars like Insight.


http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10383220-48.html
That is one major initiative we are working on," Tsuneo Tanai, COO of automobile operations at Honda, told Automotive News on the sidelines of the Tokyo Motor Show. "The motor will have higher output. There will be dual motors, with a larger battery that enables the car to be driven in all-electric mode."
Tanai declined to say what large models would get the new hybrid system or when. But Japan's Nikkei business daily reported last month that Honda plans to add a hybrid minivan in 2011.

[JediMindTricks]

Originally Posted by tegkid

I guess i'm late to the party but woohoo.

I am really looking forward to this one. A fun sports wagon really brings some life to the Acura family.

my gawd. that's hawt.

[(Cj)]

Originally Posted by black label

Got a little more info on this today. Apparently the one that was rolled out at the dealer meeting was powered by an diesel engine. Don't get excited, were not geting a diesel TSX in the states, that is just what they chose to slap the power plenum on

Supposedly (not sure I believe this but) they are saying that the TSX wagon could accomodate a AWD driveline. if I believe it but the guy who told me does work for Acura corporate.

The TSX "can" accommodate AWD too, but Acura doesn't do it because of TL overlap and the marketing mess a V6 AWD TSX would make for them (how in the world would they sell the TL at that point?)
http://blogs.insideline.com/straight...o-add-awd.html

Anyway I can see adding AWD as an option to the wagon without creating too much overlap (the RDX would be the only model to get cannibalized by such a move, but the RDX at this point is already dead).

So if AWD is indeed part of the wagon plan, I would guess that two models will be available. Loaded FWD I4 wagon, and Loaded SH-AWD V6 wagon (probably for around the same price as the SH-AWD TL sedan).

[black label]

If they made a TSX SH-AWD sport wagon, they would also be competing in markets they never delved into. It would be something cross shopped against the A4 Avant as well as the wagon offerings from Subaru.

If they make a TSX SH-AWD sport wagon, I wouldn't expect to see it when the car first rolls out in the Fall of 2010 (I'm still betting on 2 versions, loaded 4 cyl and loaded 6 cyl), I think it would come out a year later.

Again, I'm not sure I believe what he was telling me (he's new to me, he is in a higher position with Acura corporate but his info has never been proven to me to be unreliable or reliable, it's kind of an unknown at this point) but he didn't say a AWD TSX wagon was in the works, he said the TSX wagon could accomodate an AWD system. I took this to mean that as the platform sits there would be room for the necessary driveshafts to the rear of the car.

Being that this is a rebadge of a currently existing vehicle, all we really need is someone who has 1st hand knowledge of the underside of a Euro Accord Tourer to confirm or reject the claim.

[Belzebutt]

The TL and TSX look so different that it doesn't really matter how they're priced, they're not likely to attract the same buyers (the TL has the blind and aesthetically-challenged buyers covered, the TSX has the other ones).

[Mokos23]

i hope they put SH-AWD in both the TSX sedan and wagon by 2011. i would trade my current TSX in a heartbeat.

[biker]

Well, Acura does need something to rev up sales come MMC time - I still say a FWD diesel (at about 32K) would fit the demographic that buys a wagon quite well.